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homework, sorry
 

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What's a hw??

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Author Topic: Is intergration going too far?  (Read 2076 times)

Offline Mel35m

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Is intergration going too far?
« on: May 10, 2016, 11:35:22 PM »
I know it is a sensitive subject that can cause some people to get angry but I think it well worth discussing.
But I have family and friend in Europe as well as here in Australia and so I can follow both areas.
When I came to Australia many years ago it was all about being integrated into the country and culture, that also meant learning the language and accepting that some things are just different.
Despite the latest floods of refugees that cause problems for most countries considered to have a good social security and health system I notice a really worrying trend.
Back in the day one of the major requirements to apply for the AU citizenship was the ability to read, write and speak english.
Now you can become a true blue aussie with no language knowledge at all, in fact all will be provided in our native tongue.
Sure it will speed up processing but goes goes against all that involves integration.
After all, why would you bother to learn the language if you get all documents, helps and support in your own?
Same for jobs, many people are now being refused employment because they only speak english or because they follow Australian beliefs.
But all that I might be able to ignore quite easy if there would not be the problem of bending over to the needs of other cultures at the expense of your own people that already have their own way of life and culture.
Don't get me wrong here, I am not racist for that matter and friends from multiple cultural backgrounds can confirm this but I think enough is enough.

There are two main concern for me, a) Refugees b) Muslims
Let's start with a)
I do agree that people in real need must have the option to get help, nothing to argue here.
The thing is that IMHO you are only able to help those in need to a great deal if you actually afford it.
Australia can't.
The simple fact that every refugee with a cleared status has the right to a home means public housing lists are exploding in terms of waiting times.
It also means in a lot of cases that both the house and the finacial support is paid by Centrelink - which means we all pay for it.
There are families sleeping in cars months after month, unable to find a rental they can afford while at the same time available and affordable rentals are prioritised for refugees.
Don't know but to me it is just wrong to punish your own people so internationally it looks like Australia is doing the right thing here.
Where I am living we face a more serious thread though than just a lack of available housing and that is crime and violence.
Literally every week you hear about someone being attacked, raped or stabbed and in only too many cases the offender was a (former) refugee from Africa.
Some might say, more people from all different backgrounds also mean more violence, which I might accept as an arguement but not the official view on it.
If I were to stab someone for money or rape a woman in a dark alley the punishment would be quite direct and in most cases matching.
But if a refugee does the same he (or she) gets away with a slap on the wrist and we are told to have forgivness and understanding because they had such a hard life and that the cultural differences are massive.
I say the law should be equal for everyone and same for the punishment.
Although I would go a step further and actually cancel all supportive things and deport serious offenders back home.
After all what is the point of keeping migrating criminals and to support them?
Intergration is one thing, same for understanding cultural differences but if it is clear someone won't be able to follow the law than it is time for him to go back where he or she came from.

b) is a bit more complex and despite my best effords some people will claim that my comments would be racist - I assure that is not the case.
As we all know Muslims are spreading all over world and we see their places of worship popping up everywhere.
Did you every see a church in a pure muslim country?
Given the real intentions of the muslim religion it is a very peaceful and understanding religion.
So understanding the violence and the excuses for it is next to impossible unless you have a very twisted brain.
From my muslim friends and work mates I learned that they are very caring and supportive while at the same time extreme strict and in some ways weird in other means.
Take children and their education, it is very important to provide the best possible education but no matter what the partent rules are strictly diverted.
Mum is the loving caring type with all the understanding, Daddy is the solid base that alsways is the rule in the house.
Seeing how their religion dictates the daily life might look strange at first but it is also a learning experience.
And that brings us to the problem of interpreting the quran...
Here is the cause for the problems we face with terrorism and violence.
As long as muslim leaders are ignorant to the facts and support terrorism by allowing terrorists to be treated as any good muslim once they enter the community this won't change.
For me this means that as long as the great muslim leaders and countries refuse to get active in fighting terrorism in the name of allah or the muslim religion I can not really assume that all muslims are peaceful.
In fact I need to assume every muslim might have criminal intentions because they think of us like we think of cattle.
Just the real fact that for a good muslim local laws have no meaning if the uslim laws state things otherwise makes me say that a "good" muslim is unable to integrate into a non muslim country.
Funny thing is that a "good" muslim has no stand in a muslim country either, that's why they all seek to make other countries muslim conform.
But enough of that  *censored*, let's see if there are things that would really mean some changes for us or that might even affect our health.
One little know fact about following the muslim way very strictly is the regime of food handling, praying and personal hygine.
If you are an employer you might find ways to allow for the required prayers during work time even it it just means shorter break times or makingup for the loss by making the work hours a bit longer.
But why is it necessary to provide for those need in all the other public place we like and share?
Don't get me wrong here, I would understand it if the understanding would go both ways here!
We already have praying rooms in our sports venues, see houses with shower heads attached to the toilet and neighbourhood troubles as soon as a new mosque is built.
Try to get a cross with jesus in a little room with candles into a sports stadium in a muslim country....
Now the lates trend in Europe and soon here in AU too is to convert public toilets and toilets in hotels, restuarants and other public places to be more muslim and asian friendly.
For us that means toilets can't face Mekka or have anthing colored green inside the rooms.
But it also means you might have to squat the next time you feel a number2 coming.
And as it can be seen as an offence you might have too look twice to find the right cubicle as the one that is muslim conform won't offer you any toilet paper!
Which brings me to my major concern!
According to muslim laws a toilet can not face toward mekka and a muslim needs to follow strict procedure when entering the toilet, including paying.
This is not a problem at all, as long as you have the time for it ;)
What is a concern is the fact that not using toilet paper means water has to be used to wash your private areas.
To be quite fair here I have not seen any disease breaking out in muslim countries due to this but...
Let's say you enter a public toilet with several cubicles as you might find them in your local restaurant.
You use the toilet paper and still wash your hands with soap right after as we learned a thing or two about hygine.
Now while enjoying your dinner you realise the cook is a muslim.
Here I just can't help myself but feel weird thinking of eating something prepared by someone who just came from the toilet.
The washing is regulated really strikt, the use of soap or desinfectants not at all, so using soap or to actually wash your hands with soap after anumber two is an otional thing at best.
Now let's go a step further and thank the nice muslim doc or nurse who just cleaned your wound in the hospital.....
I think you get my point here without going into detail about official hygine rules for hospital staff...
But even when it comes to ur food we are being impacted by muslim laws.
You see the halal signs pooping up everywhere even if totally unjustified, like on a pack of crackers.
Fast food outlets provide halal certified meat and meals - try to insist on getting a non halal burger for a change....
Your local swimming pool might be closed to the public at certain times to allow muslim women to enjoy a few rounds in the wet stuff.
And while you might get arrested for walkig into a bank with your motorbike helmet on it is no problem to have a bunch of totally disguised muslim "women" entering the bank - what is the difference between covering your face with a helmet instead a burkha?

Intergration goes two ways, for the country it means becoming more multi cultural and having a bigger population.
For the individual it means adjusting to a new way of life and intergrating with locol customs and laws.
Sadly this is not working as long muslim law is allowed to stand over local law.
One thing that really strikes me here and often causes a bit of tension is how some of my muslim friends have an opinion on that.
While some simply say you need to adjust and find ways to follow your religion most actually say that religion stands above all.
Here you also see the difference in acceptance when it coms to women.
With my more down to earth muslim friends I have no problem showing up with my girlfriend wearing a short skirt and top that might show some skin.
She is also integrated in our conversations all the time.
On the other hand my stricter muslim friend make it really clear quite early that they can not accept my girlfirend turning up with me showing her body uncovered or in way that would "highlight" her features.
So fully covered and no make up is the way to go if you don't want to offend them.
But to be fair they do accept it the other way around, so if we invite them to party they interact and accept normal dress women.
For me it just means things are getting more complicated as you don't want to offend your friends but also see they will never really accept the culture or people in the country they call home now for so many years.

Australia is one of the very few countries that is actually based on many coultures coming together, living together and forming a more simple and tolerant approach to intergration.
But at the time Australia is promoting it's uniqueness and tolerance internationally and this simply not longer matches up.
Although AU is quite young and IMHO has no comparable "culture" or "history" as the old countires it still has formed it's own culture and way of life.
This way of life of life and the attitude of no real concept of time made AU so special.
Modern life has caught up with us though and things changed a bit but the basics are still remaining and present in our daily life.
So please guys help me out here:

If we already found our way of life and established a really nice, multi-cultural community, why do have to change all that for a minority that is unable and unwilling to accept it?
I want to have to same options, support and choices but will never get them.
We will never see other religions being fully accepted in a muslim country.
And for sure if we break the law as a guest in a muslim country we will have a hard time being treated with understanding for our cultural differences, and of course will never see a reduced sentence because we are not muslims.
If use my native tongue to speak to the one person at my work place that actuall understands it I called rude.
If I complain that I fail to understand anything my muslim work mates talk about in their tongue I am told to mind my own business or that is not of my concern....
But really the last straw was during the easter break on a little camping gorund near Apollo Bay.
We secured an area there late last year as we went with several camper vans and tents.
Obviously there were kids, big BBQ's and some alcohol involved, the last mainly from the late afternoon on (without one exceptional guy who managed to tay stay drunk for 4 days striaght :( )
Long story story short on our second morning we were approached by the manager who wanted to speak with us in privat in his office.
Turned out the two families bit bit further down not only looked like muslims, they actually were muslims.
And of course they had some complaints:
We should keep the acohol out of sight and only consume it insdie out campers or tends.
The smell and use of mainly pork on our BBq the night before was very usetting and we were ask to not use any pork from now on.
And of course it can not be tolerated that the little girls (aged between 3 and 10 years) run around in bikinies when coming back from the beach.
But their real concern was that some of actually dared to kiss our girlfriends in public and allow them to run around showing far too much skin - mind you too much skin in our case was wearing clothes showing off the legs and quite tight tops....
So no bikini or even a totally naked area between hips and t... ;)
I would have understand being told to keep the music down, or to keep the more intimate moments in the tents and campers but we were actually told that if we don't comply we would have to leave to go into a different area of the camp ground, which was nearly booked out anyway.
Needless to say we neither agreed nor left, in fact we re-stocked on pork and had no problems with our girlfriends running around in a bikini from than moment on.
Sadly our muslim neighbours decided to leave after the next night and to my surprise the manger never turned up again...
Sorry but I fail to see why I have to bend down to someone who refuses to accept me our our way of life.
My girlfriend is not allowed to wear her bikini outside our hotel complex in Dubai as we both would be arrested otherwise.
She for the bikini, me for letting her out in public like that.
So why again is it all fine and good if a muslim puts muslim law over our laws?

Offline Chris

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 07:21:11 AM »
Really don't know what to say about this. I like the way you say you aren't 'racist' but are happy to have a go at an entire religious/ethnic group. Ok I can really understand where you're coming from but I'm yet to experience any of the examples you've highlighted.

I'm not saying they aren't happening... but... ??

Really don't know what to do. :(
Manners maketh man.
Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford (William of Wykeham, 1324 - 1404)

Offline Jarrod

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 07:56:47 PM »
You've really brought out some good points. Christianity is open for all sorts of derision, and nothing is done by the authorities. But even look like making any suggestion against muslims/islam and you can find yourself up on a discrimination charge.
I have never, ever (and possibly won't) hear the name "allah or muhammad" used as we hear the name of Jesus & Christ used in blasphemy.
I am waiting for the day when someone hits their thumb with a hammer and says, muhammad that hurts!!

Offline Mel35m

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 09:28:23 PM »
I know some things seems racist when you talk or write about them but for me this "racism" goes both ways.
In some schools you won't see a cross anymore as it is offensive to the muslim groups.
Some swimming pools are closed to the public at certain times to allow muslim women to have a swim.
Here people might still argue it is only fair where I just say in a muslim country you won't see it the other way around.
Even some of my more down to earth muslim friends say it is going too far and causes tension even within their muslim community.
You have those willing to adjust to a more western life and those stating it would be an offence to do so.
So either way they fight a problem already.
If you actually check how the muslim and refugee status is in other countries (that have to deal with lot more for longer already) you can see a very disturbing trend.
People no longer really care if the muslim/refugee in front of them is a really nice and honest person or not.
They only see the problems caused by the entire group on a much larger scale.
And from the development over several years it becomes quite obvious that real integration here only goes one way and that never enough comes back from it.
It is hard to make a mother with two kids understand why she has to stay on the waiting list for public housing a few years longer while at the same time she can see refugees moving into brand new homes.
For kids in schools it is even harder as here total tolerance and understanding is the offical rule - again only in one direction.
You can only offer the other side of your face for another hit so many times until you strike back.
Sadly it does not matter who started it as if in doubt your kid should have acted less aggressive.
And this continues to all levels of life :(
I always though rules and laws are equal for everyone.
Currently I see a two class system in use.
The muslim/refugee will always get far less legal problems or punishment as the "aussie" for the same thing.
Even worse the "rules of engagement" now dictate that at your workplace or in public you can not do anything that would offend them - again while at the same they are free to do so.
In rural areas you can even get into trouble for having pigs on your farm if there are is a muslim community that does not approve :(
It might be really just me going a bit nuts here but if a gouvernment priorises "invading" minorities over their own people I just think that it is wrong.
Politicall correctness is going too far here.
I want to be able to order a non-halal burger if I feel like it.
I don't want to worry if my girlfriend is upsetting some shop owner in an australian city by wearing a short skirt and showing some skin.
I want to be able to enter a shop in an australian town and get assistance in english if required and be able to read the price labels.
I want my kids to go school without the fear of being bullied because there are only 7 "white" kids left in their class...
And yes, I want to be able to take my dog for a walk even if it dark without the fear of being stabbed because someone just continues with his old habbits from his home country without the fear of punishment or deportation.
Try to just 10% of the support and understanding asked from us by our gouvernment when you try to enter an african or muslim country as an immigrant.....
If it continous here in AU like it did all over europe I would not even have a clue to predict how it will end, just that it can't end well.

I mean, if you have all you need in your own language around you, including doctors, shops and free interpreters for official things - why should you bother to actually learn the language?
Go a step further and consider that you can even do the citizenship test in your native tongue and there is no reason in the world to bother.
Your kids will learn the language and how much or little they integrate depends on the surroundings and support from the community.
I go overboard you say, ok, when was the last time you visited "chinatown" or "little Italy" ;)
But seriously those two show how integration in AU works:
First you take over a few houses, then entire streets and then shops and offices.
Add some lawyers, doctors and so on and home from home is complete.
Don't know what you think but I simply can't see it happening in any other way with our muslim and refugee minorities.
Who wants to predict where and when we will see the first muslim or african decending major in AU ? ;)
If you dare put a bet on prime minister instead ;)

Offline Fadi

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2016, 09:37:45 PM »
I know it is a sensitive subject that can cause some people to get angry but ...

You've raised so many points, that if we had people living on Mars reading your post, they would automatically think that Australia as a country/continent has only two types of people living in it, one is you and people who support your views, whilst the other group of people is Muslims belonging to this misunderstood religion called Islam.

In a nutshell what is the main issue that you're having with Muslims in this awesome country of ours? And secondly, to integrate is not necessarily to assimilate, and that is quite alright (if you know the difference). I thank you for your time. 

Offline Jarrod

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2016, 02:33:29 PM »
The main issue???? Didn't you read the post?

Offline bambu05

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 05:07:19 PM »
 4 terrorist attacks in [welfare-central] Germany this last week...3 of them by 'refugees'.

That's my first comment on the first part of Mel35m's long opening post.

Offline Jarrod

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 08:46:52 AM »
You have to stop and wonder, don't you?

Offline Chris

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Re: Is intergration going too far?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 04:02:27 PM »
You have to stop and wonder, don't you?

Not really no!
Manners maketh man.
Motto of Winchester College and New College, Oxford (William of Wykeham, 1324 - 1404)

 

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